tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC June 4, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
likely to reoffend later in life. so i think it's -- i think the real answer is we honestly don't know because we work with -- we have access to a small universe of offenders. >> doctor thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> you're welcome. >> chris hayes is up next. tonight on "all in" -- >> i'm running to be your president. >> rick perry returns. >> it's not what you say, it is what you have done. [ applause ] >> a campaign announcement sweatier than a bikram yoga class, rick perry announces a second run for president. tonight, why this time could be different. then hillary clinton goes to war for early voting. >> stop fear mongering about a phantom epidemic of election fraud. plus the mississippi family facing arrest for cheering at a high school graduation. >> you did it! >> reporter: the troubling
takeaway from the fox news duggar interview. >> again, this was not rape or anything like that. >> "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york i'm claisz. rick perry -- i'm rickchris hayes. rick perry is back. >> each day americans demonstrate tremendous courage. many have been knocked down and are looking for a second chance. let's give them that second chance. let's give them real leadership. let's give them a future greater than the greatest days of our past. let's give them a president who leads us in the direction of our highest dreams. >> former texas governor entered the republican presidential race today inside a sweltering airplane hangar outside dallas making the announcement in front of a c-130 plane, similar to the one he flew as an air force pilot in the 1970s emblazoned with the words "perry for president." he was surrounded by military veterans and their families
including navy s.e.a.l.s and frank perry during his remarks, and the widow of american sniper chris kyle. many in the crowd wore cowboy hats though perry himself has exchanged his cowboy boots for black loafers. now sport thick, black glasses unlike in his 2012 presidential campaign. this time around perry even has his own country rap theme song. we've dropped the lyrics so you can karaoke at home. >> thank you, and god bless you. [ applause ] ♪ ♪ rick perry supporter to protect our border ♪ ♪ who don't believe in a usa rick perry all the way ♪ >> it's easy to forget how strong perry came out in his 2012 presidential run. long-time governor of a large state with strong job growth and support from the moaned establishment and gop base. perry zoomed to the front of the pack for the nomination in august, 2011. polling far ahead of mitt romney. he put in by all accounts a
terrible performance as a candidate which culminated in an iconic debate moment. >> it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone. commerce education, and the -- what's the third one there? >> you can't name the third one? >> the third agency of government? i would -- i would do away with the education the -- [ laughter ] >> commerce -- >> commerce. >> and let's see -- >> oh my. >> i can't -- third one i can't. sorry. oops. >> this time around perry -- oh my god, that tape -- perry has to contend with the memories of his disastrous 2012 performance as well as a controversial indictment his home state that could require him to leave the campaign trail to head to a texas court. joining me msnbc political correspondent casey hunt at rick perry's announcement today. and i got to say from that sort of stage craft perspective, it seemed the event came off pretty
well. the sweltering heat and sweatiness aside. >> reporter: the sweltering heat and sweatiness aside, yes. i think they tried to be prepared for how hot it was going to be. they had several giant air conditioners in the back but they weren't getting the job done. they did hand attendees fans. "perry for president." as you could see, perry sort hear to sweat it out front and center for everyone. other than that one of the more dramatic backdrops we've seen for something like this -- and a heavy focus on that military biography. that's something that is new for his 2016 bid from 2012. he obviously mentioned that he was a veteran quite a bit in the last campaign. it wasn't really a centerpiece. he does really have an authentic connection to many of those military veterans who were standing up on stage with him tonight. marcus latrell -- excuse me this afternoon. marcus latrell, one of them. he actually lived with governor perry and anita perry at the governor's mansion as he was coming back from combated in iraq and afghanistan. >> it did strike me that whereas the sort of lead message of
governor perry the last time around was about the texas miracle, so-called texas miracle about texas' economic performance, this much more focused on foreign policy on the military and veterans, his own record as a veteran veterans up on stage. that was not -- it really was not the sort of front and center lead branding for the perry campaign in 2012. >> well, i think it reflects a broader shift, as well. i think that was something that applied to much of the republican field. you had mitt romney the ultimate momnominee, running on the issues. it highlights how the issues have shifted. i think isis has become front and center in this campaign, talking about president obama's foreign policy, what republicans perceive to be weakness on that front. and i think that the perry campaign sees an opening here. i mean there aren't very many military veterans for a country that had elected military veterans as president for years and years basically up until bill clinton and president obama. you know, this -- this is a
field that's devoid largely of military experience. perry and senator graham are the only two. >> governor perry should talk to you. president john kerry, about the -- how well that necessarily works, thank you very much. joining me now from austin is van smith, ceo -- evan smith, ceo and editor-in-chief of "the texas tribune." we were following the clippings of the 2012 incredible rise and fall of governor rick perry as presidential candidate. what -- why was that such a disaster, and what should lead anyone to believe that disaster will not be repeated once he's off prompter knocking over prepared -- not going off prepared speech, and proving himself of things he was incapable of doing on the trail last time? >> the two big issues were his health and preparedness were not good. beyond that, it went perfectly. his record as you said as governor of texas, the economic record was strong. a lot of us thoughts that's going to be enough to carry him to the top of the pack. he blew it.
in a lot of ways the bigger problem was he blew it in what was a weak field. and his big challenge in this election, chris, i would say is not simply being better prepared and more healthy, but realizing that in a field of 15 or 20 republicans, even the worst of whom is better than some of best last time, he's going to have to figure out how to stand out. the veterans thing today was one thing. and i -- i would agree with you, it was definitely interesting to see that as the focus of his speech today. but he really needs to differentiate himself from a lot of the people in washington. he started to do that some today by highlighting his executive experience as opposed to their speech making on the floor of the senate. that's going to be i think, a big feature of his campaign. >> here's the section of the speech when he calls out senators for making speeches as opposed to his record. take a listen. >> will be this. when have you led? leadership is not a speech on the senate floor, it's not what you say, it is what you have done. >> now, the issue which i think
is interesting -- two things have come together. one casey alluded to. i think the bite of the economic issues finish the republican party has diminished considerably due to the performance of the economy. and due frankly to the fact they kind of got their way on the deficit and austerity for a while. that's been taken away from them in some ways. perry harped on it today. it doesn't poll or charge voters the way it, did say, in 2010, particularly, the other so-called texasmishcle looks shakier. these are a few headlines. the texas economic hiccup complicates rick perry's 2016 pitch. they lost more than 250,000 jobs in march, according to state figures. it does seem like that's going to be there complicating for him in terms of making the case about his record. >> well, in fact that march jobs number was the first negative jobs number in 53 months in texas. look, texas survived the recession, a lot of you and the rest of the country, we here in texas survived as well as we did in part because of the strength of the oil and gas economy. >> right. >> since oil and gas has been on the downturn we suffer.
we benefit in good times and suffer in bad times. look, a president has to preside over among other things the economy. one of the knocks against president obama was he didn't have any experience running anything. and so when it came time to -- to steady the economy in bad times, he didn't really have the chops to do. it perry's going argue, look 15 years, almost 15 years as governor the net job growth in texas exceeded the other 49 states combined. you, by the way, hear jeb bush talking about his record of creating jobs in florida, as well. i think we're going to not hear perry talk about that. the biggest challenge as you talked about earlier is people have got to forget about what happened in 2012. perry said today that the most optimistic person on earth is the dry land cotton farmer. now, the most opt -- no the most optimistic person on earth is somebody who wants to run for president again after pratt falling the way he did last time. he really is going to have to figure out how to have a second chance to make a first impression. and if he can't do that, none of the rest of this stuff matter. >> yeah. there's going to be scrutiny up front. the next time we have on you, i
want to talk about the sort of scuttle scuttlebutt i heard about behind the scenes in texas. the fascinating texas republican politics scuttlebutt. we'll talk about that next time. evan smith thank you very much. rick perry is the 10th major republican candidate in the gop presidential race. and there are plenty more coming. to participate in the first gop debate on fox news in august a candidate needs to be in the top ten in polling. now perry just makes the cut, polling in 10th place in the real clear politics average with 3% support. joining me now, a man whom i bet -- i bet you could get 3% in a national poll. >> i believe it -- >> host of "the majority report." >> i may throw my hat in the ring. >> casey alluded to it. let's remember the value proposition of the rick perry campaign back in 2012 which was kind of great. it was basically you've gotten mitt romney and the base doesn't like him. you have michele bachmann,
herman cain, implausible, and then you have the ven diagram intersection. here i am. everyone was excited. >> right. >> and now he is like number three in all of those slots. >> right. >> except in -- i think that's why we saw the sort of promotion the his military record. except in that one area. i mean he has -- there's no other governor who can -- who has his military service. and that's basically you know when you're talking about a race there could well be 15 people, 16 maybe 20 people in the race. and no joke -- >> i can't believe we're at ten already! >> and -- i think that like there's -- there's still a couple of people who we don't even know their names yet. they're actually considering to jump in. once -- more do and i think we'll see like donald trump, i think that's possible. we're going to see -- >> do you think that? >> i actually -- i actually do. i do think this is one of those situations where there is, you know, this is like the california recall. we've talked about it. >> right. >> he i think, is pushing the military experience as a way of
differentiating himself. but the glass is at one point someone's going to say, i want to see your prescription. >> right. >> you know, slow it to us. that is such a sort of naked attempt to get people to forget -- >> you're talking about the pain medication in 2012? >> i'm talking about the glasses he's wearing. >> the glasses! >> and the attempt to get away from governor -- honestly. >> you think that what's it's about? >> i mean i definitely think they're trying to project this was not the goofball on that stage. there were rumors -- >> pain medication for back -- >> nevertheless, when you want to get rid of three government agencies and you can't name them, people think that maybe your policy prescriptions are insincere. >> why would they think that? >> you know if he's in the debate and tries to land a punch, someone will land a punch and say "oops," and the crowd
will laugh. you're right back in that moment. >> right. no. the other issue that he has, you've got this fascinating big state dynamic emerging now with the florida battle for florida donors and florida allegiance between jeb bush and marco rubio considered top tier candidates new york stock exchange texas, you've got ted cruz and governor rick perry. and -- remember -- >> and jeb bush was involved in texas to a certain extent, that's his family. >> that's exactly right. people fund-raise from their geographic base. if you ever had the experience as a political reporter of combing through disclosures of someone fund-raise, they start close to home. literally, it's the neighbors -- >> that's where they started. >> that's going to be a brutal gauge of thrones in the state of texas. those guys and then the bush family. >> everyone's got to run around and look for their billionaire. nobody wants to be the one left without the chair when the music stops. and frankly, i think that's -- you know, in some ways, it's something the way that it's
impacting our politics. a lot of what we saw the past couple of weeks was a function of him striking out with a lot of billionaires. finding another way to raise money, and to a certain extent, that was helpful in terms of our politics. >> there's always an idea that governors have a better shot, they don't have a voting record. you have those running 5% one of 20 senators running but it also occurring to me that it's a lot easier to command national attention from the senate in this crowded field than from x governor. that's the problem perry faces. he can't -- it's hard to make news. >> yeah. and he's been out of politics for a while. right? >> right. >> so -- >> not as long as jeb bush. >> right not as long as jeb bush, i think that's a handicap for jeb bush as well. at times he's rusty. i think you're right. if you're a senator, you're basically double dipping. you've got the people covering the campaign, and you've got the people in washington in terms of your outlets to get your earned
media. >> sam cedar, thank you very much. you've got a good long-term prospect in the leader board, fantasy draft. now i think you're third or fourth with rick perry now officially joining the presidential race. it's time for an update of the "all in" candidate draft. first a reminder of the moment rick perry got picked. >> i think i'm going to go for the lowest number on the board strategy to -- you know, to explain my -- three. >> another prime number. >> yeah. >> three. will it deliver for joy? rick perry! >> rick perry. he's got three good reasons to run, but can only remember two. >> oh what's the third one there? let's see. [ laughter ] >> the former governor of the lone star state back. but this time he's got four eyes on the prize. >> today has been awesome, girl! >> reporter: >> he's former texas governor rick perry! >> oh, we're pretty happy with
our four eyes on the prize line there. that excellent pick by joy reid means she's up to 300 points on the board. second tonight michael steele. of course, there are many more potential candidates still dragging their feet on declaring. we've got an update on one of the most egregious next. out of 42 vehicles based on 6 different criteria, why did a panel of 11 automotive experts name the volkswagen golf motor trend's 2015 car of the year? we'll give you four good reasons. the volkswagen golf. starting at $19,295, there's an award-winning golf for everyone. benny's the oldest dog in the shelter.
never let it be said that "all in" doesn't get results. think of us as "all in" on your side. last night we brought you the story of jeb bush's long period of presidential exploration was possibly in flagrant violation of campaign finance law. the laws might classify him as a candidate with the attendant rules and laws of being a candidate despite the fact he has not yet declared officially his actual candidacy. paul asked ryan -- paul ryan of the campaign watchdog group explained this. his group filed complaints charging bush with violations of federal election law. today, less than 24 hours after our segment aired the news that bush will put an end to the ruse and announce his presidential
bid on june 15th in miami. the official word from the spokeswoman is that he "looks forward to announcing his decision on that day." no one doubts what that decision will be. the announcement will come after bush makes a week-long trip to europe. so there you have. it bush will announce his presidential bid. we here at "all in "we get results. audible safety beeping audible safety beeping audible safety beeping the nissan rogue with safety shield technologies. the only thing left to fear is you imagination. nissan. innovation that excites. some weed killers are overzealous. they even destroy your lawn. ortho weed b gon kills weeds... not lawns. our label says it. your grass proves it. get ortho weed b gon. the label tells the story.
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birthdays could have been hacked from the office of personnel management. the agency that screens and hires federal workers and does security clearances for 90% of the federal government. tonight, the obama administration is scrambling to assess the damage and warning millions of government employees that they should monitor their bank accounts and will get government help with credit reports and identity theft insurance. officials also tell nbc news the data breach involved a never-before-seen cyber-indicator and could potentially affect every federal agency. the fbi is investigating. in the past, cyber-attacks from china have come from this chinese army building in shanghai. this comes after last year's suspected north korean attack on sony and reports that russia had hacked the white house state department, and irs, including president obama's e-mails. today before the cyberattack was disclosed, intelligence committee member senator ron wyden told nbc news -- >> i continue to feel that it is very important that we ramp up
our effort to go after foreign hackers and foreign threats. >> reporter: u.s. officials say this breach is serious, but it could not be the worst case scenario they hope. that would involve the disclosure of the identities of the sigh's covert agriculture -- cia's covert agents. so far they do not think the cia covers have been blown. the agency has not responded to our koulscalls regarding the hacking. robert knake, former director of cybersecurity policy at the national security council at the white house joining us on the phone. robert, can you tell me first of all, how -- how big a deal this is and how would you know how big a deal it is forensically? >> i don't think this is actually that much a bigger deal than the breaches at anthem, carefirst, and other kmeshlg providers there have lost -- commercial providers that have lost other similar information. this is no different than the kind of credit identity information that's been stolen
by criminal groups over the last year. what's going on now in terms of forensics is a process that is probably nowhere near finished trying to take the indicators that were pulled from this breach investigation and trying to figure out who may have been behind it. at this point, figuring out the severity of the breach is something that obm can't do yet. what they've said is that it's possible up to four million people may have had this information taken. they don't in fact know yet whether that has happened. >> so there's sort of different end goals one can imagine with hackers breaking into information. what you said just at the top there sounds like if this is personal information what would -- what would be the end goal here? what would be the reason to acquire this information? >> the reason you'd want this kind of information is to commit fraud, to commit tax fraud insurance fraud, or credit card fraud. it's the kind of information that really is going to be most
valuable when applied to a criminal enterprise. its intelligence value is worth less. a secondary thing you might do with this information is try and use it to gain other accounts. to use it, for instance to reset passwords that might ask, for instance where you were born, what your birthday is that kind of information could be used to gain secondary account. but the value for that is -- is less than it would be for fraud. >> it seems the default assumption in these cases is to look toward china. sometimes to look toward russia. is that justified based on your experience, or are we seeing a proliferation across the world of these kinds of activities? >> yeah. i'm skeptical of the claim that this is known to be chinese government officials, chinese government-sanctioned action. doesn't seem like a worthwhile target for an intelligence agency. doesn't seem like something that a chinese military agency would
want to waste vulnerability going after. it's not useful for trade or sboounl intellectual property. there's a rush to jump and say it's china. i'm skeptical of the voter affidavity of the claims -- voracity of the claims that government officials created that. that's not an official u.s. government position. >> robert knake, former director. thank you very much. >> thank you. ahead, hillary clinton, the democrats declare war on voter suppression and litigation as a weapon of choice. the details on that bold move next.
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today republicans are systematically and deliberately trying to stop millions of american citizens from voting. what part of democracy are they afraid of? i believe every citizen has the right to vote and i believe we should do everything we can to make it easier for every citizen to vote. [ applause ] >> hillary clinton delivered a fiery speech today to texas southern university historically black school in houston, calling for at least 20 days of early voting in every date. texas is now -- every state. texas is now at the epicenter of the country's ongoing battles over voting rights. four years after becoming law, the voter i.d. rules some of the strictest in the nation are under review by the fifth circuit court of appeals.
the supreme court just decided last week to hear a conservative dhoolg challenge to texas' redistricting. the clinton campaign fired the opening shots in what promised to be a very aggressive perhapsecedentedly aggressive legal strategy against voting restrictions nationwide. a lawyer filed lawsuits last month in ohio and wisconsin. two keep presidential battleground already. "the new york times" reports georgia, nevada could be next. joining us deputy director at the brennan center for justice. brennan center has done a lot of litigation around these issues. you're from spoon. -- from texas. she went down there. clinton laid out a policy agenda on voting access that was the most radical, far-reaching sweeping expansion of the ease of the franchise that i've heard from a major candidate. >> right. it was exciting because for many years, you and other reporter and the brennan center have been indicating that we are in the
middle of a war on voting. this used to be a bipartisan issue where it was agreed that people should have free and fair access to the election system. but in 2010, we saw that dramatically change. it's really encouraging to see police station of a high stature say enough we are not going to be putting unnecessary barriers in the ballot box. all politicians should be saying that. >> not just we shouldn't be putting barriers. we should be expanding. 20 days of early voting across the nation, talked about organization's automatic voter registration. she said that's a model policy. this would profoundly change the franchise in america were we to see this happen across the country. >> right. one of the things that we have been advocating for, the center for years, is voter modernization. a way of trying to get all people who are not registered on the rolls. hillary clinton endorsed such a proposal. she wants to have a policy such that if you're eligible and an american, you are getting on the
rolls. the concept is shifting burden to the government to get people registered to vote instead of putting hoops in front of people. >> right. now we get to this, what i think is going to be one of the most fascinating, dramatic high-stake subtext of the election the litigation battle over individual states' laws, particularly at a time when the voting rights act, key provisions of which have been rendered inoperable. so it's going to be up to the campaigns. either the department of justice or campaigns to be the plaintiffs in the lawsuits. right? >> there's also a lot of private parties. for example, we represent the texas naacp and mexican legislative caucus, and -- in texas. we do need voter advocates out there making sure that unnecessary restrictions at the ballot box are pushed back. it is a risky move given what the court did to the preclearance provision and what the court did right before the elections, allowing certain restrictive laws like the one that happened in texas and the one in ohio to go forward for
the 2014 election. >> the supreme court did that. they -- they refused to step in and say actually you can't put these into operation before election until we've had a chance to hear whether these are actually constitutional. >> right. and the texas case we felt weep o strong ground because we found discriminatory intent. which mean the legislature was purposely trying to discriminate against minority voters. at a time when it's not clear that the supreme court will always step in to protect voter, to have all these lawsuits is going create something to watch. create something for people to -- >> it's also going to create the succession of high stakes down to the wire battles. what you get when you litigate under conditions of an active campaign are last-minute motions for changes, injunctions, those get appealed up. you can't turn back the clock, right? so having this -- you know, having a litigation battle over voting restrictions in 2015 is very different than having a litigation battle over voting restrictions in september, 2016,
which is what we'll see. >> well, the hope in the texas case at least is that it will be resolved before then. it is at the apple at stage. the circuit certainly knows what kind of clock we're talking about. there are almost always elections. so -- and you're entirely right that once an election happens and you've been disenfranchised, you can't undo it. it's really important that voters are able to have free and fair access to the ballot box. we need to make sure that all politicians talking about how to implement reform to make sure it's easier for people to vote. >> all right. thank you very much. >> thank you. next, why people who cheered during a graduation celebration are facing jail time. later, the incredible details from the duggar family interview. you could sit at your computer and read all about zero-turn mowers. click. scroll. tweet. or you could just sit on a john deere z435 eztrak and feel its power. you'll know it'll get the job done fast. when it's time to pick a mower you've got to get on one.
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mississippi has for all intents and purposes turned into a crime scene. at least three people are facing disturbing the peace charges and possible $500 fines and six months in jail after -- get this -- cheering on a family member after her name was called at the high school graduation last month. according to "the new york times," ursula miller was charged for yelling and clapping while inside the building after announcement had been made for all to hold their applause and celebrating until after the end of the ceremony. her loud boisterous noise, the affidavit said, was against the peace and dignity of the state of mississippi. jay foster, the school superintendent, said that not only did he tell the graduation crowd before the ceremony to hold their applause until the end, but that there was a warning in the graduation program which was obtained by the nbc affiliate in memphis, it reads in part "persons responsible for any disruption by loud cheers, shouting or the use of noisemakers may be promptly escorted from the coliseum." >> when a child do all they can
to graduate, it's an honor and a privilege for them to walk the stage. it's a privilege to clap and applaud for mine. i kept quiet. i let my son -- i was crying because i was so happy. >> foster told a local paper that there were four people who disturbed the ceremony. he was able to get the names of three and press charges. still hasn't been able to identify the forth. -- fourth. >> i hope we hear the message that everybody deserves the right to hear their child's name called, see their child walk across stage. we're talking about a ceremony that lasts about 55 minutes to an hour. >> joining me, former public defender and professor at the national defense college. i want to play this one more time so we can watch the crime. a warning to viewers, this is graphic. okay? if you have young children around, shield their eyes. take a look. >> you did, it baby! [ laughter ] >> to think i might to get out of jail or pay court cost or a
$500 fine, it's ridiculous. it's ridiculous. >> yes, it is. >> are you kidding me? >> it's ridiculous but not even that surprising. >> not that surprising? >> it is and it isn't. obviously the application of this absurd law to this absurd situation is in a way surprising but completely indicative of a way larger problem. i would say at this point our laws, our criminal laws are so vast, they cover such an extraordinary expanse, and the definitions are so elastic that we can essentially criminalize everything. yes. >> first of all, let me say -- i've been to graduations in my day. >> i hope you didn't say a word. >> this is how every graduation i've gone to has gone. administrator gets up sternly and says, for the sake of everyone, please hold your applause until all names have been read. everyone goes yes. three kids in everyone's cheering after every one. no one can help themselves. >> it's wonderful. >> this to me is a key point.
this wasn't unlawful behavior. this was disorderly behavior. right? >> no -- >> in the eyes of the superintendent. the ski that the law allows people in power to essentially prosecute violations of order as violations of law. >> that's exactly right. and that is in a way the critical of the criminal -- crill of the criminal justice system. you can find it pretty much wherever you want to look. the question is where do you look. it's in that use of discretion that i think people find discriminatory policing and things that upset them. >> let me read you -- offenses against public order here in new york, serve as -- yeah. disorderly conduct, unlawful assembly loiter criminal nuisance, secondary harassment in the second degree. the point is that if a police officer or some force of the law wants to say that are you breaking the law, in a given circumstance, there is no -- they will be able to do so. the criminal code exists to give them the ability to do that.
>> but it -- let's speak about new york. i have experience in the system here. not only i can k they they. do it is shocking. you can go to arraignments pretty much tonight from here. we could walk down to criminal court arraignments, and you would find people charged with disorderly conduct. it is one of the things it accompanies all the time, assault on police officer cases resisting arrest cases, obstructing governmental administration cases. you'd be amazed at how quickly a violation of public order materializes. >> and those are -- tend to be cases of people essential getting mouthy, being loud and disruptive, right? >> or cheering for their kid at the graduation -- >> that's the point. >> it's whatever you want it to be in a certain way. >> there's an obviously racial difference -- a white superintendent, the town -- >> great dignity. >> does not like peace offended. this is the superintendent was -- my point is not that i want
to pay money, i want them to know are consequences for their behavior. stern father figure here, i want us to have a dignified service. >> i'm not even for the dignified service. i'm for the enthusiastic service -- >> people cheer in the bronx. >> let's talk about the other bit of this which is bonding out of jail and the $500 that it cost to secure your freedom after violating the dignity and public order of the state of mississippi. >> there was just a survey about what -- something like half of american household can't come one $500. >> what's amazing is -- that's right. tonight, tonight at rikers island there are -- there's 1,000 or so people sleeping at rikers island. convicted of nothing because they cannot come one $500 bail. >> david always a pleasure. thank you for joining us. ahead, we take a look at what exactly was revealed in the first post-scandal duggar family interview. try alka-seltzer heartburn reliefchews. they work fast and don't taste chalky. mmm...amazing. thank you.
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>> he said he was just curious about girls and he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were sleeping. they didn't know he had done it. >> it was so important for us as parents to talk to our girls and make sure that nothing else had happened. so -- >> what did they say? >> well, one by one, as we talked with them, none of them were aware of josh's wrongdoings. >> so they learn good it from you? >> yeah. >> yes. yes. >> according to jim bob and michelle duggar they closely monitored their son's actions after he came forward the first time. they did not at this point get him any professional help or contact authorities. >> we thought, you know at first that josh you know, was on the road to mend at first. he was still a kid. he was still a juvenile. all these again, this was not rape or anything like that. this was like touching somebody over the clothes. >> it was only after at least two other incidents where josh
duggar told his parents he inappropriately touched two more of his sisters and a non-family member that the family sought outside help. >> at that point, we -- that's when we pulled him out of the house and said he can't be here. and so we pulled him out, and then he went through that working with that man and -- >> counseling. >> yes. >> then when he was done with the counseling, this isn't like a licensed therapist. a christian-based -- >> christian based, but i tell you what -- >> treatment facility. >> it had a huge impact on his life. really -- that was the turning point if his life. this man really reached his heart. >> after josh duggar returned from the little rock treatment-based facility his parents said they brought him into the arkansas state police headquarters where he spoke with a state trooper. no charge were ever filed. the next year, the duggars starred in their first big national tv special. today they sit atop one of the most popular reality tv shows of our time. are there other ways the duggars might have handled this difficult situation? we'll talk about that next.
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what was mystifying was the then your reaction and how you would handle that. i like to believe that most people understand that that is abuse and in a situation where one of your children has abused the other of your children they both need immediate mental health intervention. >> like we're getting in the car right now, like i'm calling, i'm finding the person, the mental health professional for each of these children of mine. >> correct. >> the perpetrator and victim. >> yes. >> and we're going to go now. >> the bible-based home schooling technique they subscribe to. >> which they did not get into in the interview. >> which they did not discuss in the interview, true. suggests that you handle it at home and it has this long set of work sheets and how do you determine the factors in the
household or the school that contributed to this abuse. there anything the victim the did to provoke abuse? this real blame the victim mentality in this philosophy can be super isolating to the victim. >> actually, worst than isolating, i think perpetuates guilt and shame that is already a real issue for victims of abuse particularly sexual abuse when they have no guilt, they often question themselves, did i do something in? to have your home schooling endorse that and be in a family where women, where the model is that the women are sort of there to support the men, what choice do you have in forgiveness? really? what -- you know -- >> >> all the women support all of the men in their lives. the older brother, included. >> let's also be clear here. whatever was like, whatever was done initially was manifestly ineffective because this happened with five different individuals, right? >> yes. >> the intervention, there are a lot of people who said when the
story first broke that said you should have called the cops. what do you think about that? >> i'm really not a lawyer so i'm not addressing the legal side. i really think that the first thing you should do is get mental health care. and also first of all you have to understand abuse it's really a public health issue. it happens unfortunately often enough that it is -- >> incredible wide spread often the majority of are family members or people in the close circle of the victim. >> correct. and that's why we have to understand that the first-line people are pediatricians, emergency room doctors, crist psychiatrists, psychologists. because those are the people who are authorized to so that child protective services can come in and objectively a third party can decide is it safe to have these people together in the house. that the matters the most. the question of, you know, should you be arrested and
charged and so on, you know, i think what is disconcerting about this particular case, and i know the that the duggars said differently, but the difference between 15 and 16-year-old and molestation of a 5 or 6-year-old i think that's splitting hairs and it concerns me about issues of pedophilia. >> my other feeling watching this was this happened the year before you go on television. like i just -- you know -- the year before you decided to you decided -- you the adults decided to put your minor children on television invite the world into your home, make your world public, subject them to scrutiny. open them all up to prying eyes. you made that decision for your kids, you the parents and you're going to go on television and talk about how other families are to be judged, how other families are less than. >> this is a classic case of the psychological term called splitting, which is you split off the urges that are occurring to you or your family of i want to do this heinous thing and you
split off and say i'm not that at all. i'm the opposite of that. i'm the pillar of right and moral and everything good, you know, think mark foley. i don't see his children. i protect them, et cetera. that kind of thing. >> clearly, the family used that to demonize others and they have been really virulent in terms of demonizing gay and lesbian parents. his job was to go around promoting junk science saying that gay and lesbian parents could be child molesters and a >> and a threat to children. >> and a threat to children, exactly. the family inserted themselves into arkansas politics. >> in fayetteville when an lgbt civil rights ordnance passed they donated and got a campaign. michelle duggar recorded a robo call that went to voters and said transgender people are going to molest your children in bathrooms. >> she did that knowing what had happened. >> yes, that's why i say it is unconsciously about that, you know.
this isn't my family. this didn't happen to me, it's those people. those are the bad people and i'm going to protect people from those other bad people. >> it's to me what was so striking about this whole thing, particularly the happened in the venue of fox and it was an everyone threatic interview, michael brown stole some cigarettes and he's a thug. and this young man molested five different girls and i want to live in a world where we find humane and compassionate interventions for the victims and for this young man so that he can get right and healthy and have a productive life and he shouldn't be thrown in the criminal justice system and shouldn't be tossed out as someone who is unredeemable. but this bubble of compassion that existed in that is so constrained, right? >> you can't have that therapeutic intervention in an environment like the school teaching program that they use
at home. i doesn't allow for any scrutiny from your community. >> right, because it is fundamentally to outside worlds. because of the way it is constructed. thank you both for being here. >> that is all for this evening. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thanks for joining us this hour. in big-time politics, even when you're a big-time successful national politician, you have good days but you also inevitably sometimes have bad days. and today for a few really big-named politicians who want to become president, today for a hand full of those guys, it was a bad day. first of all, spare a thought for marco rubio, senator from florida. some genius in the marco rubio for president operation today signed him up to do a fundraising dinner in connecticut, and at one level, that's fine, i'm sure the connecticut republican party is